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The concept of an "informed choice" caught my interest as I was reading through another thread and saw this example:



When someone continues to make an "informed choice" and does not learn from natural consequences, I somehow feel obligated (as a teacher, perhaps) to help them avoid the same mistake over and over again. When they rationalize and justify their actions while insisting on continuing with dysfunctional behavior, I get frustrated and then put distance between myself and that person because I can't trust their judgment. I thought I was using the "ignore" feature here for purely selfish reasons in order to escape the feelings of frustration when another person is not willing to work towards positive change but it sounds like it would be selfish of me and anyone else to continue to engage with the other person so that ignoring the person is the best, and least selfish, practice.

I guess what has me confused is that this board is a place where we attempt to redirect people when they get stuck. Most people benefit from this type of peer feedback because they are glad to know that they can change their own behavior to avoid pot holes. I feel good about being here when I see such positive changes happening. I don't feel good when I see people making the same mistakes over and over to the point that it is obvious that learning is not taking place and I most definitely don't want to be one of those people!

So are we all acting in self-interest by offering suggestions to others who seem to need our guidance? Are we supposed to instead allow people to make "informed choices" and not say anything to them?

Hi Denim.

I certainly cannot write about what should or should not be done on this board. However, I can offer some feedback based on your post.

I've heard the pothole analogy used in addiction-speak. In addiction, it looks like - "Mary is really struggling with her sobriety. She goes into the bar, and can't figure out why she keeps drinking." The "pothole" becomes, going into the bar. And, terribly important to the scenario is that Mary is actually wanting sobriety.

Now - translate the "pothole" analogy to a board where people are working on recovery related to bpd. There are two issues I see. To contrast, in addiction recovery, the aim is abstinance (it's super clear). In bpd recovery, the aim can get convoluted, unclear, if you will.

And, what is the pothole? Who defines it? I have found on this board, and others, that I can really tell if I see a pothole, and the poster doesn't. If two people see the pothole, does that make it real? How about ten people.

Why don't they see it? Well, it's possible that I've (we've) determined a pothole that I find useful to my healthy functioning, but I am biased. I am placing my values, my pov onto some else's recovery.

Secondly, and I think importantly, on this site - bpd has, as a primary hallmark, often, distortion in cognition. Meaning? Someone with bpd or similar recovery journey might be standing in a pothole and screaming, "I am on a flat surface".

I find it useful to consider rules of engagement. Does the poster want my feedback? Do I feel compelled to write? It's all about me, really. I find it interesting which potholes I react to, and which one's I'm the most vigilant about.

fwiw,

Molly

I think that when whether or not I "feel good" or "don't feel good" is based on whether other people are doing what I think they should, or following my advice, I need to be look at what pothole I am standing in the middle of.

I offer suggestions to people I care about because I find it painful to see them making the same self-destructive choices over and over again. I suppose I'm acting in my own self-interest when I do this, though I hadn't really thought of it that way before. I don't like to stand by and watch people hurt themselves repeatedly.


If I realize that my suggestions are falling on deaf ears, I'll eventually stop trying to be so darn helpful. is definitely not the best use of my time.


Ann makes a good point. It's taken me a while to recognize that I tend to be most helpful to others when I'm struggling with my own stuff. So if I find myself feeling frustrated by someone else's stuck-ness, or thinking obsessively about whether someone responds to the suggestions I've offered, I try to ask myself what I could be doing to help myself instead.

Take care,

EmJay

I guess it takes someone wanting to do something about their situation to motivate them to walk around a pot hole or to do something to fill in the hole so it is no longer a stumbling block. Why a person would want to keep falling in the same hole is beyond me and yet I know that I have gone in circles at times over an issue I don't manage to resolve because strong feelings prevent me from processing something more intellectually. Sometimes it does take time to recognize a problem and time to come up with possible solutions and then time to test out those possible solutions before a problem is fixed. Maybe some problems have no solutions and that is what keeps people falling into the same hole over and over again or it could be that people who are "wired" to process on an emotional level rather than in intellectual level are at a disadvantage if their intellect will not help them come up with solutions to the problem and they are not willing to listen to suggestions from people who are removed enough that their feelings do not interfere with their own thinking in the same way.

I suppose what does not make sense to me is why someone would ask for help and then ignore helpful replies. If someone comes to a community and states that they don't want to fall in a particular pothole anymore and are told they should avoid the pothole, why would that person then defend their right to fall in potholes and get upset with people who were giving advice when it goes against their own way of thinking? Isn't the point of asking for advice to get different perspectives from our own? I assume that when we are unable to solve a problem on our own, we want suggestions other than the things we have already tried that didn't work. Why then would someone not be able to accept advice that goes against their own way of thinking? Is it that misery loves company and so the person would rather everyone else adopt their way of thinking and join them when they fall than to use the tools and do the work required to make changes in thier own way of thinking?

Oops, I got up to grab some lunch and did not proofread before I hit "submit" - obviously "thier" should be "their" instead!

I know that for me, what keeps me falling in the pothole is if someone else could or might do something about it. For example, it took me a long time to accept that I wasn't going to get decent therapy on the national health service. I think in my case, if I feel that the reality isn't fair or isn't how things should be, it takes me longer to accept it.

I have a friend in another state who continually complains to me about certain things. I have tried (unsuccessfully) to get her to change. She absolutely refuses. I would get frustrated and more frustrated. I finally decided that I am going to keep my mouth shut. I would never say "I told you so" but I just listen and say "uh huh." I have given up on her. She is one of my best friends.

I think if people here at BPDR don't follow the suggestions offered, there may be many explanations why. We don't know each other in RL so we might be missing things that could give us the cues. But I think that eventually, if people don't listen to us, we might just walk away. They have every right to be here, same as we do. I would imagine that if the moderators don't mind them continually posting, what can we do? How many times can you confront someone who doesn't want to hear you? At some point we would just walk away.

I think this is a learning example for us. Not everyone is going to do what we want them to do, no matter how much we believe we are right. At some point we have to face facts. With my friend, I had three choices: I could either keep hammering away at her, to no avail; I could stop talking to her altogether; or I could just listen and keep my mouth shut. I chose the latter.

I don't think any of us are therapists. We are not paid to listen to each other. We have choices to walk away if what we keep reading bothers us. There was someone here on the board who continually did something that I couldn't understand why she kept doing it. It took me a while, but I finally learned that this is how she is, there's nothing I can do about it, and I stepped away. That was my choice.

As I said, it can be frustrating, but we do have choices here.

Denim,

I can definitely identify with what you have described here.

I had a conversation with someone over the past few days, who really helped me to define my thoughts in a new way. And that is this:

People are on their own journeys. If I am sitting at F, it would take a leap of faith for me to jump to Z. Alot of people hesitate for years to take the step needed to get to G. And I just want to take them to Z. That describes the reasoning behind the lack of empathy I have shown lately. "Stop worrying about G, and just jump straight to Z." lol. It doesn't work that way for most people. And I am thinking I don't want to go back to F and help a person get to G....because that might hinder my own growth. It would put me in a certain mindset that I don't want to be in. I suppose people at G are more able to help people sitting at F?

I took a leap of faith, I can't expect everyone to. I can radically accept that someone cannot make the step from F to G, for whatever reason. I can radically accept that a person may never take a leap of faith. I can radically accept that a person needs to take steps G through Y in order to understand what Z is. Z cannot be defined by a person sitting at F. I can accept them for what they are. I don't have to put them on ignore because they can't or won't make a step or leap of faith, but I also don't have to meet them at F. And if something annoys me about their words, I can always remind myself that their words only apply to people who identify with them, at F.

And because I have found that a whole slew of people will probably take this post personally, this applies to me as well. I am sure people see me sitting at F in certain ways.

I am learning quite a bit from this post. Thank you Denim for posting this! And Aqua, your reply was wonderful! We are all on our own journeys. It's wonderful to have people there to help us along the way. I am trying to be more open and accepting of what other people have to say. Thanks!

Aqualite, I like what you say. My own experience is somewhat similar, though different.

If I've just got to G, like as a different way of thinking, I don't want to be pulled back to F. I don't want to look back at F. I don't want to talk about F stuff, because I don't want to be putting F thoughts back in my head. I've noticed that, howeever, especially when talking about my own stuff. Like, I've just left F and got to G, but folks replying to me are thinking I'm at D or E or F and trying to say helpful things. And I don't have a good reply, because I'm not ready to look back and say "I understand what you are saying, and I've been there, but I've moved on", because I need to right then, focus on where I'm at, and maybe the next few baby steps ahead, G.1 perhaps. Only when I'm secure on G can I look back.

As far as being at Z and someone else being at F and me being able to look back and see where they are, there, looking back isn't a danger to me. But I may have a tough time doing it. If I can, I can perhaps be helpful. And it could be I find F or the F-G transition easy to remember, but not, say, H-I.

And, then, sometimes people are on a very different path than mine. I'm at F or K or R or Z, and they are at 4, or 10, or 19, or 26. It's harder to understand because I haven't been there. It's not someplace I've been, and not someplace I will be, but a place not on my path. Any input I have will be limited. And it's generally best for me to leave that thread for others with more understanding of where the person is at.

And it could be even that my step G is different from someone else's G, even where F is or seems similar. Different paths.

Yes, Ellen, I agree with you too. I also find that sometimes, like when I go from F to G, I'm so excited about it that I want everyone to share my joy. I get so caught up in my own little success that I want to shout it from the rooftop. But I realize that I have to be careful or I'll come across as arrogant or a know-it-all. I dont' want to seem like that.

I also find that sometimes people will post about something that I have absolutely NO experience with. I'd like to say something but feel I don't have the right, since I've never walked in their shoes. As an example, people here will write about their dating experiences. Well, I don't have much dating experience so I dont' feel I have the right to say anything about it.

As far as what you said about being pulled back, let's say from G to F, I often am afraid of that. I am so relieved to be at G and I am scared of my memories of being at F. I don't like to re-live them.

Thanks Ellen so much for your insight.

I agree with all this too. I have trouble connecting with someone who is at F when I am at Z. I don't remember what it was like at F, and don't really want to, when Z is so much better. I don't want to talk about being at F, because I have moved past that, and that would move me to thinking in the past instead of moving forward. I am seeing that everyone's path is so unique that I am finding a hard time knowing when I connect anymore lol. And if someone decides not to take my suggestions, it may be because I am not getting a connection with them. But how often does it happen that someone actually understands, connects with, and wants to take my F to Z or my F to G? Probably not very often. I suppose the more one posts, the more the words will have influence.

Aqua, I agree. Everyone is on their own unique path. I think whether people get what you're trying to say depends on a lot of things - where they are on their journey, how they interpret what you are saying to them and the manner in which it is delivered. Also, I think people need to be ready to hear someone else's words. I know for me, in the past, I was not always willing to listen. I am trying to be more open now to suggestions. So it's a learning process all around. More than anything, I am trying to learn patience - I think that has a lot to do with how people perceive someone else's words too.

What follows are NOT rhetorical questions. I have been bothered by these questions for some time and am grateful that this conversation has got to a point where it feels sensible to ask them.

What if there are no placenames on the paths? No A,B,C or 6,7,8??? What if there are no road names on the signposts? In that case, how do we figure out what's going on and what the best, most effective response might be?

What's the chance that my point A,B and C will be the same as yours? Very little I suspect. Given that, if each time we encounter we must check to see what the similarities and differences are, what's the point of having them?

Under these circumstances, how do we steer Joe Bloggs away from pothole Hell? Or do we?

Well, the problem is, they may not want to be steered away. Thank God for diversity or the US wouldn't be what it is today. I would think someone in poverty would not want to be there, for instance, but that may not be the case at all. I can't assume they WANT to be steered, and there were times when I didn't want to be steered away from what was killing me. Do we know best? Or don't we? Maybe they need to learn a lot more before they are ready to make a step. My mother, for instance, never made a step. She went to F and stayed there, and she doesn't understand a thing I talk about. I think there are standards written by the government, and laws, that we must adhere to, that means the government thinks they know best, and because we remain in this country, we must agree to that. Other than that, it's the-creme-rises-to-the-top. And one man's pothole will be another man's dream....

I think in these instances we might ask the person questions. For instance, "why do you think you are doing this" or something like that. Try to get them to think about what they're doing, why they're doing it and what the consequences for them may be. Sometimes we won't know the answer, but can just lend an ear. I know that's not ideal, but it may be all that we can do under certain circumstances.

And if the person keeps stepping on those landmines and won't move on, maybe we use Radical Acceptance and realize they're stuck and aren't ready for what we have to suggest.

As I am reading this thread what really keeps springing to mind is school. There were years when I had teachers I really related to, that I understood very well, their style really suited mine. Other years I might have well spent the whole time making paper airplanes.

Did that make them a bad teacher? Did it make their style wrong? For me yes! For the gal sat next to me, hey she may have taken in every word.

No one can be everything to everyone. Point is if I get to the point where am frustrated giving out my messge, my lil idea , my method of learning something and someone still walks the same line. Perhaps it is time for me to walk away.

If I feel I have something to offer someone and they just can't relate to it, or can't understand my POV why would I continue to hammer my point home? I have informed that person to the best of my ability what I feel causes them hurt or suffering. If they can't, wont, dont want to see it. Hey is their stuff not mine!

I know that there are posts that I don't relate to at all because I have no knowledge or experience with those things, such as comments about TV shows since I have not had TV for so many years. I am not even up on current events since I don't read the news so I would not get involved in any sort of political debate, for example. Then there are things I have experienced and would like some feedback about but I know that it is not likely anyone else here has shared my same experiences and my posting about them would only cause people to feel more removed from me. I no longer ask for help with spiritual issues, for example, because that is so far outside the scope of knowledge and experience of people here at BPDR that I just end up being labeled a freak who does not belong here. I have to look for other resources to find answers to spiritual questions and concerns and focus on the things people here might relate to when I post.

When it comes to BPD, there are so many combinations of traits that even when we are talking about the same disorder, our perceptions of BPD are very different. I particularly noticed this when I posted briefly at the Nook (now called something else but I have lost interest to know the current name) because what people there were describing as BPD was nothing like my understanding of what BPD is about. There are so many books out there with conflicting viewpoints about BPD that it is no wonder that those without professional credentials have no clue what they are talking about. Most of the time they were talking about someone they identified as having BPD when I doubt they were even dealing with BPD at all, but then the tools (such as CPD, DBT, etc.) for treating someone with BPD have been shown to be effective for other disorders to perhaps it was a benefit to find resources even if the disorder was not what they thought.

Some people here have been diagnosed with BPD while others in different countries have been diagnosed with something similar that is not part of our DSM here in the United States (CPTSD, for example - CPTSD is not listed in the DSM here in the US even though it has been proposed as a separate diagnosis for many years) so that the etiology of symptoms may be different for different people. Then there are disorders that are related, such as DID, but have other symptoms that people with BPD may not be able to relate to on the same level. At the same time there are "nons" who have not experienced BPD personally but vicariously through someone else. It makes sense that we don't all relate to each other or what others are going through at times.

I think that what I struggle most with is when someone posts about a particular problem asking for feedback and then rejects the feedback by claiming that the people making suggestions are "abusive" or "bullies" who are only responding in order to "pick on" or "bully" the person into making changes that any reasonable person would assume the person wants to make in order to solve the problem. I have seen many instances where a person is genuinely trying to help someone and yet the person they are trying to help takes a defensive posture so that none of the information seems to sink in at all. Then the focus goes to how the problem came about but there is no work on fixing the problem so it keeps happening over and over again. It is fine to analyze the cause to a point - you fell into the pothole because you always fell into potholes in the past, not knowing that it is possible to walk around them - but the information about how to avoid falling into the pothole in the future is tossed aside as if it is irrelevant to the discussion and the person making the suggestion to avoid potholes is viewed as being "mean" for daring to suggest to someone that they should take steps to avoid falling into the same pothole repeatedly. The only "welcome" replies seem to be those that focus on the "poor you, you fell into a pothole but it is not your fault since you have always fallen into potholes all your life and can't be expected to change that now" rather than taking into account the constructive replies made out of genuine concern for the person. The "walking on eggshells" type of replies that enable people to stay stuck just aren't helpful but those people who "walk on eggshells" (mainly trying to keep the peace) are viewed as "nice" because they appear to be accepting the person just as they are and not expecting anything to change.

I suppose if someone is just "ranting" about falling into a pothole and clearly does not want to solve the problem, just rant about making the same mistake repeatedly and fuss over how unfair life is to put potholes in our way, it is obvious that the person does not want to change and those people don't usually insist on staying at BPDR when their ranting is not productive. Why would someone who recognizes that they have a problem with falling into potholes reject helpful suggestions and choose to keep falling into potholes, though? The only reasons I can think of are stupidity (it is no longer ignorance when someone has been educated about the problem), laziness (it is too hard to do the work to change), emotional instability (emotions are so overwhelming that the person can't think logically), or the person it getting secondary gains (attention) by being stuck in the problem.

The other issue I have is that it is hard for me to want to be around people who insist on being stuck at the same time they post about wanting help. I used to assume that people who post about a given topic are looking for helpful feedback but now I have to wait until I know a person well enough to make that assessment because I have seen that it is not true for everyone. Those people who are standing around in potholes and fussing about being where they are end up interfering with anyone else in the vicinity. It is possible to use the "ignore" feature to effectively block a person's direct interference but it is the resulting commotion that can't be ignored because so many people get sucked into the drama. There does not seem to be an effective way to keep traffic moving around the person who insists on being a roadblock to others because the person who falls in tends to grab onto the people on the edges and ends up pulling them in by refusing to take only a hand in order to help themself out of the pothole.

There are instances where a lifeguard's safety can become threatened when rescuing a drowning person if they get too close to a person who is flailing around. The lifeguard can throw out a flotation device but if the flailing person refuses to grab onto it to help themself, it may become necessary to use another rescue method that puts them in danger of being pulled underwater as the drowning person uses them to stay above water. Lifeguards are trained only to approach a drowning person that is willing and able to cooperate with rescue efforts, otherwise they must wait for the person to become unconscious before they risk taking a hold of them to pull them to safety. It is risky to allow a drowning person to become unconscious before pulling them out of the water because it is possible the person will die but at the same time they can't risk allowing the person to kill them by flailing around and pulling them under. If there is a threat that the drowning person will pull them under, the lifeguard must put distance between themself and the drowning person and wait for the drowning person to stop the behavior that is endangering both of their safety.

It is good when we recognize that we are over our heads and need to accept help, just as it is good for helpers to know when to keep a safe distance for their own personal safety. If someone wants our help, they will show compliance. If they not able to comply, then they don't want help and they need to be left on their own to figure it out without sucking others into their unhealthy choices. They may be making an "informed choice" that they are willing to live with but that does not mean that they have the right to interfere with others who are here to learn and make better choices.

Getting back to my original questions:


I think this board functions because we care about each other's recovery process along with our own. If we were only interested in our own recovery, this would not be the best place to work towards that because it is a community. It is hard to not care about someone enough to ignore them since it shows the least amount of caring when we are indifferent to others. A person has to care enough about someone to "like" or dislike" that person while indifference is a lack of concern for another person's welfare. It is indifference that has allowed the most monstrous atrocities on this planet to take place, not hatred. A serial killer who tortures his victims to death does not "hate" his victims, rather he is indifferent towards them and does not care about their right to life nor does he care about the pain he inflicts (it is the power to inflict pain that feeds this type of evil). I know that it is hard for a caring person such as myself to ignore someone because it goes against my human nature. I tend to be a "helper" by nature so it is hard for me to have a lack of concern for someone who expresses that they would rather be stuck than to receive help.

Additionally, I don't think it is fair to criticize a person who is attempting to help someone in a way that has not been tried before. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insane so different approaches need to be tried with different people. Some people may need to be "bitch-slapped" at times and that may be the most reasonable action to take for those people. It may not feel "nice" to the receiver but there are times when it is the best thing for that person because it results in a different course of action. I also believe that allowing a person to stay stuck by "walking on eggshells" is not effective and should be avoided when dealing with people who are not making good choices. I have seen enough evidence to indicate that ignoring unhealthy behavior or being supportive to someone who is acting in unhealthy ways is not effective but I am willing to keep an open mind to how that could be helpful for some people who do not use it as "permission" to continue displaying the same destructive behaviors repeatedly over a number of years. I would rather have people be honest and direct with me than to feed me a crock of shit in order to protect my feelings. I want friends who care about me, not ones who feel the need to pacify me in order to tolerate being around me.

I guess my own "pothole" in this matter is trying to determine my own role here at BPDR. I certainly don't want to waste my time or efforts giving unwelcome suggestions to people who would rather stay stuck and at the same time I don't want to watch people stay stuck for so many years because it causes me to wonder if this community is really effective. I believe that under the right circumstances, this community can be effective and I want to see that outcome materialize. Otherwise I would be somewhere else that offers me hope for a more positive outcome.

Based on my thoughts earlier! I was thinking of say the scientist take of an earthquake vs the geologists. Even if BPD was definitive. The description of the same thing may be very different imo. Yet both very valid descriptions also.

How much more vast and varied for something with I forget the no but 2?? shades of BPD?

I can understand what you're saying Denim. However, none of us are T's and none of us are really able to truly discern where a person is in their own recovery. We are all at different stages, and unfortunately, sometimes we do flounder and don't hear what others may be offering as help. We need to have patience and respect for those people. Many of us have our own T's to help us. BPDR is not the only place we obtain help. I maintain that we still need to respect each other. Bitch-slapping to me is not an acceptable way to learn anything. Maybe others will accept it, but I know I won't. I am sure you are a caring person, but it still boils down to how the message is given and how it is received. We cannot push anyone along on their journey - they have to go at their own pace. We all have issues in our RL's that we may not be sharing here at BPDR, but do impact how we receive the help that is given here. We have deep emotional issues that are not easy to overcome. They have been ingrained in us over many years, and it's not easy to overcome them that easily. I believe it is better to step back if your suggestions are repeatedly not being taken. There may be a reason for that that we don't know about. Sometimes it's difficult to know exactly how we feel about something and we can't explain it. So a little slack needs to be cut. I have had this happen with my friend and it frustrates me, but I have no other choice. There's no use driving myself crazy because she wont' listen to me. It's not worth it. We need to ask ourselves how important it is in the long run that this person receive and listen to our message.

I lost my first attempt at a reply so I am trying this again.



I can only control how my messages are given, not how they are received, but at the same time I understand that everyone responds to things differently. When I know someone well enough and have had positive interactions with them in the past, I can be more confident that those people will receive my message as it was intended while I tend to avoid responding to people I don't know as well or those who I have noticed have a difficult time processing certain messages.

We all get triggered at times, including myself. At my last therapy appointment, my therapist wore a red shirt and I just could not "do" red on that day. I told her I needed to leave but instead she offered to put a blue shirt on over her red shirt and we took a walk. She did not know that red would trigger me the way it did and what is strange is that I have had to wear a red staff shirt or a red chorus costume so apparently my issue with red is not something I can't handle on a regular day. I did not know I would be triggered by her wearing a red shirt but I certainly did not hold it against her since it is my issue. At some point I will have to learn to tolerate red better but my dislike of red does not prevent others from choosing red as their favorite color even though I personally choose blue as my favorite color. Either we don't all see red the same way or there is some reason I find red aversive and I will have to explore it further on a day when I can handle red better.

That's a good point. I think my actual problem lies in the fact that the same 'ole irritates me after a while. I'm a changing entity. I'm the kind of person that gets bored to tears with lack of progress. I'm also the kind of person who likes to try and experiment. In fact, at certain times, I have a need to. Sometimes other people become the recipient of that, that I like to observe and then alter according to that. My messages seem to change with time. So I suppose that, sometimes, my need to learn and grow in that way overcomes my need to be considerate, in the way someone has defined. And my need to see change also does. I think these things could be used in very positive directions!

I can see where the inconsideration comes from, my bf has pointed out that I have some ways about me that show inconsideration. My parents didn't teach me any, they just kinda said, "go out there and do for yourself, you make good grades". And my dad was too busy drinking with my mother chasing him around to show me anything. Not that that is any excuse... there are certain people I don't do it to, others, I just ignore. Usually, I find that the ones I care more about are very well-grounded and wise. I think I might mimic the inconsideration I see in others....especially when they don't see it themselves. Sometimes a system of what appears to be considerate is really anything but.

While re-reading this thread just now, I realized that I missed an opportunity to ask if you have been able to figure this out for yourself. If so, I would love to hear your own conclusions since they might be beneficial to me as I explore this further in my own mind.

One 12-step slogan is, "Say it once." If I tell someone once, "I care about you, and I am worried that you might not be making a choice that's healthy for you. Have you considered [alternate choice]?" then they have received the information and can make their own choice.

If their choice is to respond, "Yes, but I think I should follow my original plan because [blah blah blah]," the healthy response might be to say, "Okay, good luck with that." The unhealthy choice is to keep banging the drum, repeating over and over my POV, why they are making a mistake, why I have decided they are in a pothole. This is codependent behavior, and it's a boundary violation, even if I am certain I am absolutely right and they are headed for disaster.

If their unhealthy choice can directly affect my life (which is rarely, if ever, the case on an internet message board), then I can decide how to make decisions regarding my own life to protect myself. For instance, if an alcoholic chooses to continue drinking instead of going to a meeting, I can decide if I want to be around them or if I want to leave.

If I find myself consistently reacting to certain people on BPDR, then I practice self-care by either avoiding their threads or not responding unless I can do so without being invested in their response.

It seems like sometimes people here ask for advice or feedback and then they spend their thread resisting the feedback they are given. Whether I continue to participate in a thread where someone is resisting me is my choice.